Backup NetApp NAS with DPM - Ideas ??

Hi,

I'm using DPM2K7 now for just about everything however I've got 4 NetApp 
FAS270 Net Filers that I need to backup as well. As these are hardware based 
Network Attached Storaged devices I obvously can't install the DPM agent on 
them (An agent from NetApp would be nice but unlikely all things considered 
:) ).

Given the snapshot functionalityof the filers, this is primarily a disasrter 
recovery scenario in case we loose two spindle's simaltaneously. End user 
recovery isn't needed and were talking realy about having two backup points 
per day.

Idea 1:  Install NetApp SnapDrive on a server, mount the volumes on the 
filer as local storage, re-share everything from the server and install DPM 
agent. Risks; I don't know if the SnapDrive driver will be compatible with 
the DPM agent. Issues; Unfortunately the reason these were bought is because 
the IT Director doesn't like Admin's wasting thier time administering 
windows file servers. Given the low calibre of people I work with I'd concur 
with that. The less they touch the less they can break.

Idea 2: I doubted this would work given DPM's limitation with mount points 
but I tried backing up the shares via DFS. I'm getting desperate ok :)  As 
expected, it only backs up the root folder, not the content.

Idea 3: This is ugly, I realy don't want to do it, but at £6000 per month 
for an offsite backup solution were currently using it may be my only 
option. Arrgh, I set up a Windows Server 2003 server with 10TB of SATA DAS 
on it. I use Windows backup to backup the NetFilers to the local 10TB of 
DAS. I then use DPM to backup the local DAS to an offsite location. Yuckkk, 
hardly the majestic solution I was looking for.

I think if I implemented that I'd have to leave the industry. I wouldn't be 
able to hold up my head for the embarisment.

Any idea's anyone ?

Any yes, I know that there are solutions from NetApp but other than a cost 
££££ that will make you feint, I need to stick to one product to ensure the 
monkey's I work with can use it.

The joys of being a contractor. Ever been in a meeting with half a dozen 
Senior IT Engineers (supposedly) and have one of them ask why that having a 
three week tape rotaion of incremental backups won't work when the last full 
backup was three years prior....


Thanks in advance for any assistance as I'm out of idea's.


Kind regards,

Jas :) 

I don't know the answer but I also would like to be able to put our NetAPP 
FAS2050 on tape using DPM.

"Jason Bailey" wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm using DPM2K7 now for just about everything however I've got 4 NetApp 
> FAS270 Net Filers that I need to backup as well. As these are hardware
based 
> Network Attached Storaged devices I obvously can't install the DPM agent on

> them (An agent from NetApp would be nice but unlikely all things considered

> :) ).
> 
> Given the snapshot functionalityof the filers, this is primarily a
disasrter 
> recovery scenario in case we loose two spindle's simaltaneously. End user 
> recovery isn't needed and were talking realy about having two backup points

> per day.
> 
> Idea 1:  Install NetApp SnapDrive on a server, mount the volumes on the 
> filer as local storage, re-share everything from the server and install DPM

> agent. Risks; I don't know if the SnapDrive driver will be compatible with

> the DPM agent. Issues; Unfortunately the reason these were bought is
because 
> the IT Director doesn't like Admin's wasting thier time administering 
> windows file servers. Given the low calibre of people I work with I'd
concur 
> with that. The less they touch the less they can break.
> 
> Idea 2: I doubted this would work given DPM's limitation with mount points

> but I tried backing up the shares via DFS. I'm getting desperate ok :)  As

> expected, it only backs up the root folder, not the content.
> 
> Idea 3: This is ugly, I realy don't want to do it, but at £6000 per month

> for an offsite backup solution were currently using it may be my only 
> option. Arrgh, I set up a Windows Server 2003 server with 10TB of SATA DAS

> on it. I use Windows backup to backup the NetFilers to the local 10TB of 
> DAS. I then use DPM to backup the local DAS to an offsite location. Yuckkk,

> hardly the majestic solution I was looking for.
> 
> I think if I implemented that I'd have to leave the industry. I wouldn't be

> able to hold up my head for the embarisment.
> 
> Any idea's anyone ?
> 
> Any yes, I know that there are solutions from NetApp but other than a cost

> ££££ that will make you feint, I need to stick to one product to ensure
the 
> monkey's I work with can use it.
> 
> The joys of being a contractor. Ever been in a meeting with half a dozen 
> Senior IT Engineers (supposedly) and have one of them ask why that having a

> three week tape rotaion of incremental backups won't work when the last
full 
> backup was three years prior....
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any assistance as I'm out of idea's.
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jas :) 
> 

DPM uses the MS software VSS provider to snap, and Netapp natively uses it's 
own VSS harware provider.

The MS software provide is copy on write.  Once a snap is in place, a write 
(overwrite actually) costs 3 IO operations; read current data, write it to 
the diff area, write new data in old location.   With the netapp hardware 
provider it's just one operation; write.  This is because Netapp's 
virtualization layer never overwrites.  What this translates to is much less 
IO when doing a backup.  Netapps snap reserve is roughly analog to the diff 
area in the MS software provider. With the ms provider, if I snap 10 times, 
I can't delete intermediary snaps without invalidating snaps that come 
after.  Whith Netapp I can.  You sound like you're currently using the 
Netapp hardware provider.  Why would you want to increase snapshot space 
requirements and decrease performance while snapshots are in place?

It sounds like you want a way to move the snap off box to another storage 
device.  You can snapmirror, snapvault, or ndmpcopy the data to another 
filer, or snapvault or ndmpcopy the data to tape.  Maybe someday MS will 
support more than just it's own VSS provider in DPM.  I think it's going to 
take a while for MS and all the SAN vendors to figure out how to do that. 
In the meantime, why don't you go with what you already have?  Moving to the 
ms software provider would be a step backwards.






"Jason Bailey" <jasonbailey@beljasion.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:uJwftItmIHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Hi,
>
> I'm using DPM2K7 now for just about everything however I've got 4 NetApp 
> FAS270 Net Filers that I need to backup as well. As these are hardware 
> based Network Attached Storaged devices I obvously can't install the DPM 
> agent on them (An agent from NetApp would be nice but unlikely all things 
> considered :) ).
>
> Given the snapshot functionalityof the filers, this is primarily a 
> disasrter recovery scenario in case we loose two spindle's simaltaneously.

> End user recovery isn't needed and were talking realy about having two 
> backup points per day.
>
> Idea 1:  Install NetApp SnapDrive on a server, mount the volumes on the 
> filer as local storage, re-share everything from the server and install 
> DPM agent. Risks; I don't know if the SnapDrive driver will be compatible 
> with the DPM agent. Issues; Unfortunately the reason these were bought is 
> because the IT Director doesn't like Admin's wasting thier time 
> administering windows file servers. Given the low calibre of people I work

> with I'd concur with that. The less they touch the less they can break.
>
> Idea 2: I doubted this would work given DPM's limitation with mount points

> but I tried backing up the shares via DFS. I'm getting desperate ok :)  As

> expected, it only backs up the root folder, not the content.
>
> Idea 3: This is ugly, I realy don't want to do it, but at £6000 per month 
> for an offsite backup solution were currently using it may be my only 
> option. Arrgh, I set up a Windows Server 2003 server with 10TB of SATA DAS

> on it. I use Windows backup to backup the NetFilers to the local 10TB of 
> DAS. I then use DPM to backup the local DAS to an offsite location. 
> Yuckkk, hardly the majestic solution I was looking for.
>
> I think if I implemented that I'd have to leave the industry. I wouldn't 
> be able to hold up my head for the embarisment.
>
> Any idea's anyone ?
>
> Any yes, I know that there are solutions from NetApp but other than a cost

> ££££ that will make you feint, I need to stick to one product to ensure 
> the monkey's I work with can use it.
>
> The joys of being a contractor. Ever been in a meeting with half a dozen 
> Senior IT Engineers (supposedly) and have one of them ask why that having 
> a three week tape rotaion of incremental backups won't work when the last 
> full backup was three years prior....
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance as I'm out of idea's.
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Jas :) 

We use DPM to backup servers like Exchange, Sharepoint, etc. Some of which 
are not on the SAN so NETAPP so we have to use DPM.  I am not interested in 
making more snapshots.  I would just like to have a backup of the SAN on tape 
once per week or month to take offsite.  We are not budgeted for another 
NETAPP to replicate to at onother office until later this year.

"John Fullbright" wrote:

> DPM uses the MS software VSS provider to snap, and Netapp natively uses
it's 
> own VSS harware provider.
> 
> The MS software provide is copy on write.  Once a snap is in place, a write

> (overwrite actually) costs 3 IO operations; read current data, write it to

> the diff area, write new data in old location.   With the netapp hardware 
> provider it's just one operation; write.  This is because Netapp's 
> virtualization layer never overwrites.  What this translates to is much
less 
> IO when doing a backup.  Netapps snap reserve is roughly analog to the diff

> area in the MS software provider. With the ms provider, if I snap 10 times,

> I can't delete intermediary snaps without invalidating snaps that come 
> after.  Whith Netapp I can.  You sound like you're currently using the 
> Netapp hardware provider.  Why would you want to increase snapshot space 
> requirements and decrease performance while snapshots are in place?
> 
> It sounds like you want a way to move the snap off box to another storage 
> device.  You can snapmirror, snapvault, or ndmpcopy the data to another 
> filer, or snapvault or ndmpcopy the data to tape.  Maybe someday MS will 
> support more than just it's own VSS provider in DPM.  I think it's going to

> take a while for MS and all the SAN vendors to figure out how to do that. 
> In the meantime, why don't you go with what you already have?  Moving to
the 
> ms software provider would be a step backwards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Jason Bailey" <jasonbailey@beljasion.co.uk> wrote in
message 
> news:uJwftItmIHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm using DPM2K7 now for just about everything however I've got 4
NetApp 
> > FAS270 Net Filers that I need to backup as well. As these are hardware

> > based Network Attached Storaged devices I obvously can't install the
DPM 
> > agent on them (An agent from NetApp would be nice but unlikely all
things 
> > considered :) ).
> >
> > Given the snapshot functionalityof the filers, this is primarily a 
> > disasrter recovery scenario in case we loose two spindle's
simaltaneously. 
> > End user recovery isn't needed and were talking realy about having two

> > backup points per day.
> >
> > Idea 1:  Install NetApp SnapDrive on a server, mount the volumes on
the 
> > filer as local storage, re-share everything from the server and
install 
> > DPM agent. Risks; I don't know if the SnapDrive driver will be
compatible 
> > with the DPM agent. Issues; Unfortunately the reason these were bought
is 
> > because the IT Director doesn't like Admin's wasting thier time 
> > administering windows file servers. Given the low calibre of people I
work 
> > with I'd concur with that. The less they touch the less they can
break.
> >
> > Idea 2: I doubted this would work given DPM's limitation with mount
points 
> > but I tried backing up the shares via DFS. I'm getting desperate ok :)
 As 
> > expected, it only backs up the root folder, not the content.
> >
> > Idea 3: This is ugly, I realy don't want to do it, but at £6000 per
month 
> > for an offsite backup solution were currently using it may be my only

> > option. Arrgh, I set up a Windows Server 2003 server with 10TB of SATA
DAS 
> > on it. I use Windows backup to backup the NetFilers to the local 10TB
of 
> > DAS. I then use DPM to backup the local DAS to an offsite location. 
> > Yuckkk, hardly the majestic solution I was looking for.
> >
> > I think if I implemented that I'd have to leave the industry. I
wouldn't 
> > be able to hold up my head for the embarisment.
> >
> > Any idea's anyone ?
> >
> > Any yes, I know that there are solutions from NetApp but other than a
cost 
> > ££££ that will make you feint, I need to stick to one product to
ensure 
> > the monkey's I work with can use it.
> >
> > The joys of being a contractor. Ever been in a meeting with half a
dozen 
> > Senior IT Engineers (supposedly) and have one of them ask why that
having 
> > a three week tape rotaion of incremental backups won't work when the
last 
> > full backup was three years prior....
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any assistance as I'm out of idea's.
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Jas :) 
> 
> 

Hi John,

Thankyou for your responce. I'm well aware of my options for using the 
vaious NetApp tools and products for this situation. Perhaps I was not clear 
enough when I stated that I'm looking for a disaster recovery solution that 
involves using one product (DPM 2K7) so I don't have to deal with the 
current staff training and capability issues that we currently face with 
several tools.

Quite franky, given that our requirements are for

1) Disk based backup only
2) At least two offsite backup locations
3) One recovery tool

The NetApp solution would require me to purchase two filers (one for each 
location) with about 25TB of storage each and still won't satisy the third 
requirement.

As ugly as the solution I can put in place is (worse case scenario), it will 
cost 1/10th of the cost and given that since the place I currently work has 
never had an occurance that would need this, it would would be an adequate 
solution which doesn't involve pissing £100k up the wall.

I asked the question based upon the requirements that I have. If NetApp's 
own tools and products satisfied my requirements there would have been no 
reason for me to post in the first place.

Whilst your reply is of no use to me, it may be of use to someone else so 
thankyou, in any event.


Kind regards,

Jason Bailey


"John Fullbright" <fjohn@donotspamnetappdotcom> wrote in message

news:%23O3QQtEnIHA.1368@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> DPM uses the MS software VSS provider to snap, and Netapp natively uses 
> it's own VSS harware provider.
>
> The MS software provide is copy on write.  Once a snap is in place, a 
> write (overwrite actually) costs 3 IO operations; read current data, write

> it to the diff area, write new data in old location.   With the netapp 
> hardware provider it's just one operation; write.  This is because 
> Netapp's virtualization layer never overwrites.  What this translates to 
> is much less IO when doing a backup.  Netapps snap reserve is roughly 
> analog to the diff area in the MS software provider. With the ms provider,

> if I snap 10 times, I can't delete intermediary snaps without invalidating

> snaps that come after.  Whith Netapp I can.  You sound like you're 
> currently using the Netapp hardware provider.  Why would you want to 
> increase snapshot space requirements and decrease performance while 
> snapshots are in place?
>
> It sounds like you want a way to move the snap off box to another storage 
> device.  You can snapmirror, snapvault, or ndmpcopy the data to another 
> filer, or snapvault or ndmpcopy the data to tape.  Maybe someday MS will 
> support more than just it's own VSS provider in DPM.  I think it's going 
> to take a while for MS and all the SAN vendors to figure out how to do 
> that. In the meantime, why don't you go with what you already have? 
> Moving to the ms software provider would be a step backwards.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jason Bailey" <jasonbailey@beljasion.co.uk> wrote in
message 
> news:uJwftItmIHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm using DPM2K7 now for just about everything however I've got 4
NetApp 
>> FAS270 Net Filers that I need to backup as well. As these are hardware

>> based Network Attached Storaged devices I obvously can't install the
DPM 
>> agent on them (An agent from NetApp would be nice but unlikely all
things 
>> considered :) ).
>>
>> Given the snapshot functionalityof the filers, this is primarily a 
>> disasrter recovery scenario in case we loose two spindle's 
>> simaltaneously. End user recovery isn't needed and were talking realy 
>> about having two backup points per day.
>>
>> Idea 1:  Install NetApp SnapDrive on a server, mount the volumes on the

>> filer as local storage, re-share everything from the server and install

>> DPM agent. Risks; I don't know if the SnapDrive driver will be
compatible 
>> with the DPM agent. Issues; Unfortunately the reason these were bought
is 
>> because the IT Director doesn't like Admin's wasting thier time 
>> administering windows file servers. Given the low calibre of people I 
>> work with I'd concur with that. The less they touch the less they can 
>> break.
>>
>> Idea 2: I doubted this would work given DPM's limitation with mount 
>> points but I tried backing up the shares via DFS. I'm getting desperate

>> ok :)  As expected, it only backs up the root folder, not the content.
>>
>> Idea 3: This is ugly, I realy don't want to do it, but at £6000 per
month 
>> for an offsite backup solution were currently using it may be my only 
>> option. Arrgh, I set up a Windows Server 2003 server with 10TB of SATA

>> DAS on it. I use Windows backup to backup the NetFilers to the local
10TB 
>> of DAS. I then use DPM to backup the local DAS to an offsite location.

>> Yuckkk, hardly the majestic solution I was looking for.
>>
>> I think if I implemented that I'd have to leave the industry. I
wouldn't 
>> be able to hold up my head for the embarisment.
>>
>> Any idea's anyone ?
>>
>> Any yes, I know that there are solutions from NetApp but other than a 
>> cost ££££ that will make you feint, I need to stick to one product to 
>> ensure the monkey's I work with can use it.
>>
>> The joys of being a contractor. Ever been in a meeting with half a
dozen 
>> Senior IT Engineers (supposedly) and have one of them ask why that
having 
>> a three week tape rotaion of incremental backups won't work when the
last 
>> full backup was three years prior....
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any assistance as I'm out of idea's.
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Jas :)
>
>