|
| How to get OS/2, Ubuntu, XP to co-exist |
 |
Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:33:33 GMT |
I'm trying to get Ubuntu installed on my system and to co-exist with eCS
v1.1 (which I use constantly) and Win XP Home (which I use when
unavoidable).
My setup looks like the following:
Logical View
Logical Volume Type Status File System Size (MB)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
WinXP Home 2002 Compatibility NTFS 10236
eCS v1.1 C: Compatibility Startable HPFS 1027
Programs D: Compatibility HPFS 517
Home E: Compatibility HPFS 4102
Data F: LVM JFS 118304
SHARED G: Compatibility FAT32 8197
Physical View
Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical Volume
------------------------------------------------------------------------
WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home 2002
[ free space 1 ] 10236
eCS v1.1 1027 Primary In use eCS v1.1
Programs 517 Logical In use Programs
Home 4102 Logical In use Home
Data 118304 Logical In use Data
SHARED 8197 Logical In use SHARED
I'm using Air-BOOT, figuring this might help as it frees up the Primary
partition Boot Manager would require.
SHARED is a FAT32 partition which I use to move data between OS/2 and XP
(and Ubuntu if I can get it installed).
I understand it's a good idea to use at least three partitions for
Linux: "/", "/home", and swap. So, my plan is to apportion
that 10 GB
of "[ free space 1 ]" as follows:
/ 6144 MB
/home 3592 MB
swap 500 MB
However, if I use "Guided Install" it seems to want to use the 10 GB
for
"/" and to re-size (shrink) SHARED to get the space it wants for
swap.
If I choose "Manual Edit of partitions" it doesn't allow me to
create
more than one partition out of "[ free space 1 ]".
OK, so I figured it was either my unfamiliarity with GRUB or some
peculiarity with it that was the problem so I tried to use LVM to
apportion "[ free space 1 ]" into those three partitions, but that
won't
work either. If I go into Physical View and attempt to create a new
partition I'm only allowed to create a Primary partition (which I
understand "/" needs to be). So, I created a Primary partition of
6144
MB to use for "/". But at this point LVM won't allow me to create
any
more partitions out of the remaining "[ free space 1 ]" (4086 MB).
So, anyone have an idea of the cause of the problem?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
--Frank Lloyd Wright
War is good for business - invest your son.
--antiwar bumper sticker from the 1960s
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Post Reply
|
| Re: How to get OS/2, Ubuntu, XP to co-exist |
 |
Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:39:58 GMT |
Since your free space is between primaries and not at the end of the
drive, AND since you already have a container for your logical
drives, you cannot allocate ANYTHING BUT a (single) primary in this
space. You need to use DFSee to move the logical partitions forward
into the free space so that you can allocate more logical volumes in
the container. I'm probably not using the right terms here, but if you
buy DFSee, Jan van Wijk will be glad to help you out. Look here:
http://www.dfsee.com
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:33:33 UTC, Joe Negron
<jnegron@XmindspringX.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to get Ubuntu installed on my system and to co-exist with eCS
> v1.1 (which I use constantly) and Win XP Home (which I use when
> unavoidable).
>
> My setup looks like the following:
>
> Logical View
>
> Logical Volume Type Status File System Size (MB)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> WinXP Home 2002 Compatibility NTFS 10236
> eCS v1.1 C: Compatibility Startable HPFS 1027
> Programs D: Compatibility HPFS 517
> Home E: Compatibility HPFS 4102
> Data F: LVM JFS 118304
> SHARED G: Compatibility FAT32 8197
>
> Physical View
>
> Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical Volume
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home 2002
> [ free space 1 ] 10236
> eCS v1.1 1027 Primary In use eCS v1.1
> Programs 517 Logical In use Programs
> Home 4102 Logical In use Home
> Data 118304 Logical In use Data
> SHARED 8197 Logical In use SHARED
>
> I'm using Air-BOOT, figuring this might help as it frees up the Primary
> partition Boot Manager would require.
>
> SHARED is a FAT32 partition which I use to move data between OS/2 and XP
> (and Ubuntu if I can get it installed).
>
> I understand it's a good idea to use at least three partitions for
> Linux: "/", "/home", and swap. So, my plan is to
apportion that 10 GB
> of "[ free space 1 ]" as follows:
>
> / 6144 MB
> /home 3592 MB
> swap 500 MB
>
> However, if I use "Guided Install" it seems to want to use the 10
GB for
> "/" and to re-size (shrink) SHARED to get the space it wants for
swap.
> If I choose "Manual Edit of partitions" it doesn't allow me to
create
> more than one partition out of "[ free space 1 ]".
>
> OK, so I figured it was either my unfamiliarity with GRUB or some
> peculiarity with it that was the problem so I tried to use LVM to
> apportion "[ free space 1 ]" into those three partitions, but
that won't
> work either. If I go into Physical View and attempt to create a new
> partition I'm only allowed to create a Primary partition (which I
> understand "/" needs to be). So, I created a Primary partition
of 6144
> MB to use for "/". But at this point LVM won't allow me to
create any
> more partitions out of the remaining "[ free space 1 ]" (4086
MB).
>
> So, anyone have an idea of the cause of the problem?
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
> --Frank Lloyd Wright
>
> War is good for business - invest your son.
> --antiwar bumper sticker from the 1960s
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Joe Negron from Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, NY, USA
--
|
| Post Reply
|
| Re: How to get OS/2, Ubuntu, XP to co-exist |
 |
Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:59:09 GMT |
On 2007-04-24, Tom Brown <thombrown!@san.rr.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:33:33 UTC, Joe Negron
><jnegron@XmindspringX.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm trying to get Ubuntu installed on my system and to co-exist with
eCS
>>v1.1 (which I use constantly) and Win XP Home (which I use
when
>>unavoidable).
>>
>>My setup looks like the following:
>>
>>Logical View
>>
>>Logical Volume Type Status File System Size
(MB)
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>WinXP Home 2002 Compatibility NTFS
10236
>>eCS v1.1 C: Compatibility Startable HPFS
1027
>>Programs D: Compatibility HPFS
517
>>Home E: Compatibility HPFS
4102
>>Data F: LVM JFS
118304
>>SHARED G: Compatibility FAT32
8197
>>
>>Physical View
>>
>>Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical
Volume
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home
2002
>>[ free space 1 ] 10236
>>eCS v1.1 1027 Primary In use eCS v1.1
>>Programs 517 Logical In use Programs
>>Home 4102 Logical In use Home
>>Data 118304 Logical In use Data
>>SHARED 8197 Logical In use SHARED
>>
>>I'm using Air-BOOT, figuring this might help as it frees up the
Primary
>>partition Boot Manager would require.
>>
>>SHARED is a FAT32 partition which I use to move data between OS/2 and
XP
>>(and Ubuntu if I can get it installed).
>>
>>I understand it's a good idea to use at least three partitions
for
>>Linux: "/", "/home", and swap. So, my plan is to
apportion that 10 GB
>>of "[ free space 1 ]" as follows:
>>
>> / 6144 MB
>> /home 3592 MB
>> swap 500 MB
>>
>>However, if I use "Guided Install" it seems to want to use the
10 GB for
>>"/" and to re-size (shrink) SHARED to get the space it wants
for swap.
>>If I choose "Manual Edit of partitions" it doesn't allow me
to create
>>more than one partition out of "[ free space 1 ]".
>>
>>OK, so I figured it was either my unfamiliarity with GRUB or
some
>>peculiarity with it that was the problem so I tried to use LVM
to
>>apportion "[ free space 1 ]" into those three partitions, but
that won't
>>work either. If I go into Physical View and attempt to create a
new
>>partition I'm only allowed to create a Primary partition (which
I
>>understand "/" needs to be). So, I created a Primary
partition of 6144
>>MB to use for "/". But at this point LVM won't allow me to
create any
>>more partitions out of the remaining "[ free space 1 ]" (4086
MB).
>>
>>So, anyone have an idea of the cause of the problem?
>
>Since your free space is between primaries and not at the end of the
>drive, AND since you already have a container for your logical
>drives, you cannot allocate ANYTHING BUT a (single) primary in this
>space. You need to use DFSee to move the logical partitions forward
>into the free space so that you can allocate more logical volumes in
>the container. I'm probably not using the right terms here, but if you
>buy DFSee, Jan van Wijk will be glad to help you out. Look here:
>
>http://www.dfsee.com
>
Alex Taylor, on another newsgroup, said essentially the same:
I deleted the eCS partition, then recreated it at the end of the
freespace, resulting in:
Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical Volume
------------------------------------------------------------------------
WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home 2002
eCS v1.1 1027 Primary In use eCS v1.1
[ free space 1 ] 10236
Programs 517 Logical In use Programs
Home 4102 Logical In use Home
Data 118304 Logical In use Data
SHARED 8197 Logical In use SHARED
I divided the free space into a 9980 MB "/" partition and a 256 MB
swap
partition, then installed Ubuntu. Upon rebooting I discovered Ubuntu's
install had wiped AiR-BOOT (but wasn't concerned since AiR-BOOT
recommended the creation of a recovery floppy) and replaced it with its
own bootloader (GRUB? I'm getting lost with all these new programs). I
booted Ubuntu - no problem. I booted WinXP - no problem. But, I was
unable to boot eCS - the following message appeared after the second
Dani driver loaded:
OS/2 is unable to operate your hard disk or diskette drive. The system
is stopped. Correct the preceding error and restart the system.
I then booted AiR-BOOT's recovery floppy, not expecting it to fix the
eCS boot problem, but curious as to whether it would screw up anything
else. I was able to boot WinXP but now Ubuntu would no longer boot
(and, as with Ubuntu's boot loader, neither would eCS).
I then removed all partitions except WinXP, resulting in this disk
layout:
Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical Volume
------------------------------------------------------------------------
WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home 2002
[ free space 1 ] 142383
At this point I had to use Manual Partition Edit else the Ubuntu install
would grab the entire free space for installation, leaving no room for
other partitions. So, I again created the 9980 MB "/" and 256 MB
swap
partitions.
The problem is Ubuntu's partition editor would only allow me to create
these two partitions as Primary. When I later booted the eCS
installation disk I used LVM to create another Primary to boot eCS, but
then I wasn't allowed to create any other partitions. So, what's the
problem here? I knew about the four-Primary-partition limit, but not
the seeming fact that once those four Primary partitions are created
you're then disallowed from creating any other partitions.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is from weakness that people reach for dictators and concentrated
government power. Only the strong can be free. And only the productive
can be strong.
--Wendell L. Willkie
War is good for business - invest your son.
--antiwar bumper sticker from the 1960s
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Post Reply
|
| Re: How to get OS/2, Ubuntu, XP to co-exist |
 |
Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:57:33 GMT |
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:59:09 UTC, Joe Negron
<jnegron@XmindspringX.com> wrote:
> On 2007-04-24, Tom Brown <thombrown!@san.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:33:33 UTC, Joe Negron
> ><jnegron@XmindspringX.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I'm trying to get Ubuntu installed on my system and to co-exist
with eCS
> >>v1.1 (which I use constantly) and Win XP Home (which I use
when
> >>unavoidable).
> >>
> >>My setup looks like the following:
> >>
> >>Logical View
> >>
> >>Logical Volume Type Status File System Size
(MB)
>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>WinXP Home 2002 Compatibility NTFS
10236
> >>eCS v1.1 C: Compatibility Startable HPFS
1027
> >>Programs D: Compatibility HPFS
517
> >>Home E: Compatibility HPFS
4102
> >>Data F: LVM JFS
118304
> >>SHARED G: Compatibility FAT32
8197
> >>
> >>Physical View
> >>
> >>Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical
Volume
>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home
2002
> >>[ free space 1 ] 10236
> >>eCS v1.1 1027 Primary In use eCS v1.1
> >>Programs 517 Logical In use Programs
> >>Home 4102 Logical In use Home
> >>Data 118304 Logical In use Data
> >>SHARED 8197 Logical In use SHARED
> >>
> >>I'm using Air-BOOT, figuring this might help as it frees up the
Primary
> >>partition Boot Manager would require.
> >>
> >>SHARED is a FAT32 partition which I use to move data between OS/2
and XP
> >>(and Ubuntu if I can get it installed).
> >>
> >>I understand it's a good idea to use at least three
partitions for
> >>Linux: "/", "/home", and swap. So, my plan is
to apportion that 10 GB
> >>of "[ free space 1 ]" as follows:
> >>
> >> / 6144 MB
> >> /home 3592 MB
> >> swap 500 MB
> >>
> >>However, if I use "Guided Install" it seems to want to
use the 10 GB for
> >>"/" and to re-size (shrink) SHARED to get the space it
wants for swap.
> >>If I choose "Manual Edit of partitions" it doesn't
allow me to create
> >>more than one partition out of "[ free space 1 ]".
> >>
> >>OK, so I figured it was either my unfamiliarity with GRUB or
some
> >>peculiarity with it that was the problem so I tried to use
LVM to
> >>apportion "[ free space 1 ]" into those three partitions,
but that won't
> >>work either. If I go into Physical View and attempt to create a
new
> >>partition I'm only allowed to create a Primary partition
(which I
> >>understand "/" needs to be). So, I created a Primary
partition of 6144
> >>MB to use for "/". But at this point LVM won't allow
me to create any
> >>more partitions out of the remaining "[ free space 1 ]"
(4086 MB).
> >>
> >>So, anyone have an idea of the cause of the problem?
> >
> >Since your free space is between primaries and not at the end of the
> >drive, AND since you already have a container for your logical
> >drives, you cannot allocate ANYTHING BUT a (single) primary in this
> >space. You need to use DFSee to move the logical partitions forward
> >into the free space so that you can allocate more logical volumes in
> >the container. I'm probably not using the right terms here, but if you
> >buy DFSee, Jan van Wijk will be glad to help you out. Look here:
> >
> >http://www.dfsee.com
> >
>
> Alex Taylor, on another newsgroup, said essentially the same:
>
> I deleted the eCS partition, then recreated it at the end of the
> freespace, resulting in:
>
> Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical Volume
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home 2002
> eCS v1.1 1027 Primary In use eCS v1.1
> [ free space 1 ] 10236
> Programs 517 Logical In use Programs
> Home 4102 Logical In use Home
> Data 118304 Logical In use Data
> SHARED 8197 Logical In use SHARED
>
> I divided the free space into a 9980 MB "/" partition and a 256
MB swap
> partition, then installed Ubuntu. Upon rebooting I discovered Ubuntu's
> install had wiped AiR-BOOT (but wasn't concerned since AiR-BOOT
> recommended the creation of a recovery floppy) and replaced it with its
> own bootloader (GRUB? I'm getting lost with all these new programs). I
> booted Ubuntu - no problem. I booted WinXP - no problem. But, I was
> unable to boot eCS - the following message appeared after the second
> Dani driver loaded:
>
> OS/2 is unable to operate your hard disk or diskette drive. The system
> is stopped. Correct the preceding error and restart the system.
>
> I then booted AiR-BOOT's recovery floppy, not expecting it to fix the
> eCS boot problem, but curious as to whether it would screw up anything
> else. I was able to boot WinXP but now Ubuntu would no longer boot
> (and, as with Ubuntu's boot loader, neither would eCS).
>
> I then removed all partitions except WinXP, resulting in this disk
> layout:
>
> Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical Volume
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home 2002
> [ free space 1 ] 142383
>
> At this point I had to use Manual Partition Edit else the Ubuntu install
> would grab the entire free space for installation, leaving no room for
> other partitions. So, I again created the 9980 MB "/" and 256
MB swap
> partitions.
>
> The problem is Ubuntu's partition editor would only allow me to create
> these two partitions as Primary. When I later booted the eCS
> installation disk I used LVM to create another Primary to boot eCS, but
> then I wasn't allowed to create any other partitions. So, what's the
> problem here? I knew about the four-Primary-partition limit, but not
> the seeming fact that once those four Primary partitions are created
> you're then disallowed from creating any other partitions.
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It is from weakness that people reach for dictators and concentrated
> government power. Only the strong can be free. And only the productive
> can be strong.
> --Wendell L. Willkie
>
> War is good for business - invest your son.
> --antiwar bumper sticker from the 1960s
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Joe Negron from Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, NY, USA
All logical partitions go into a "container" that takes up one of the
"primary" slots.
You can have 4 primaries or up to 3 primaries and N logicals.
Study required. Google: hard drive partition allocation. Look at the
first hit:
Hard Disk Partitioning Primer
HTH
--
|
| Post Reply
|
| Re: How to get OS/2, Ubuntu, XP to co-exist |
 |
Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:47:12 +020 |
Hi Joe
"Joe Negron" <jnegron@XmindspringX.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:c1.2b8.351xXF$01A@news.ecomstation.com...
> On 2007-04-24, Tom Brown <thombrown!@san.rr.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:33:33 UTC, Joe Negron
>><jnegron@XmindspringX.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I'm trying to get Ubuntu installed on my system and to co-exist with
eCS
>>>v1.1 (which I use constantly) and Win XP Home (which I use
when
>>>unavoidable).
>>>
>>>My setup looks like the following:
>>>
>>>Logical View
>>>
>>>Logical Volume Type Status File System Size
(MB)
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>>>WinXP Home 2002 Compatibility NTFS
10236
>>>eCS v1.1 C: Compatibility Startable HPFS
1027
>>>Programs D: Compatibility HPFS
517
>>>Home E: Compatibility HPFS
4102
>>>Data F: LVM JFS
118304
>>>SHARED G: Compatibility FAT32
8197
>>>
>>>Physical View
>>>
>>>Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical
Volume
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>>>WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home
2002
>>>[ free space 1 ] 10236
>>>eCS v1.1 1027 Primary In use eCS v1.1
>>>Programs 517 Logical In use Programs
>>>Home 4102 Logical In use Home
>>>Data 118304 Logical In use Data
>>>SHARED 8197 Logical In use SHARED
>>>
>>>I'm using Air-BOOT, figuring this might help as it frees up the
Primary
>>>partition Boot Manager would require.
>>>
>>>SHARED is a FAT32 partition which I use to move data between OS/2
and XP
>>>(and Ubuntu if I can get it installed).
>>>
>>>I understand it's a good idea to use at least three partitions
for
>>>Linux: "/", "/home", and swap. So, my plan is
to apportion that 10 GB
>>>of "[ free space 1 ]" as follows:
>>>
>>> / 6144 MB
>>> /home 3592 MB
>>> swap 500 MB
>>>
>>>However, if I use "Guided Install" it seems to want to use
the 10 GB for
>>>"/" and to re-size (shrink) SHARED to get the space it
wants for swap.
>>>If I choose "Manual Edit of partitions" it doesn't
allow me to create
>>>more than one partition out of "[ free space 1 ]".
>>>
>>>OK, so I figured it was either my unfamiliarity with GRUB or
some
>>>peculiarity with it that was the problem so I tried to use LVM
to
>>>apportion "[ free space 1 ]" into those three partitions,
but that won't
>>>work either. If I go into Physical View and attempt to create a
new
>>>partition I'm only allowed to create a Primary partition
(which I
>>>understand "/" needs to be). So, I created a Primary
partition of 6144
>>>MB to use for "/". But at this point LVM won't allow me
to create any
>>>more partitions out of the remaining "[ free space 1 ]"
(4086 MB).
>>>
>>>So, anyone have an idea of the cause of the problem?
>>
>>Since your free space is between primaries and not at the end of the
>>drive, AND since you already have a container for your logical
>>drives, you cannot allocate ANYTHING BUT a (single) primary in this
>>space. You need to use DFSee to move the logical partitions forward
>>into the free space so that you can allocate more logical volumes in
>>the container. I'm probably not using the right terms here, but if you
>>buy DFSee, Jan van Wijk will be glad to help you out. Look here:
>>
>>http://www.dfsee.com
>>
>
> Alex Taylor, on another newsgroup, said essentially the same:
>
> I deleted the eCS partition, then recreated it at the end of the
> freespace, resulting in:
>
> Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical Volume
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home 2002
> eCS v1.1 1027 Primary In use eCS v1.1
> [ free space 1 ] 10236
> Programs 517 Logical In use Programs
> Home 4102 Logical In use Home
> Data 118304 Logical In use Data
> SHARED 8197 Logical In use SHARED
>
> I divided the free space into a 9980 MB "/" partition and a 256
MB swap
> partition, then installed Ubuntu. Upon rebooting I discovered Ubuntu's
> install had wiped AiR-BOOT (but wasn't concerned since AiR-BOOT
> recommended the creation of a recovery floppy) and replaced it with its
> own bootloader (GRUB? I'm getting lost with all these new programs). I
> booted Ubuntu - no problem. I booted WinXP - no problem. But, I was
> unable to boot eCS - the following message appeared after the second
> Dani driver loaded:
>
> OS/2 is unable to operate your hard disk or diskette drive. The system
> is stopped. Correct the preceding error and restart the system.
>
> I then booted AiR-BOOT's recovery floppy, not expecting it to fix the
> eCS boot problem, but curious as to whether it would screw up anything
> else. I was able to boot WinXP but now Ubuntu would no longer boot
> (and, as with Ubuntu's boot loader, neither would eCS).
>
> I then removed all partitions except WinXP, resulting in this disk
> layout:
>
> Disk Partition Size (MB) Type Status Logical Volume
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> WinXP Home 2002 10236 Primary In use WinXP Home 2002
> [ free space 1 ] 142383
>
> At this point I had to use Manual Partition Edit else the Ubuntu install
> would grab the entire free space for installation, leaving no room for
> other partitions. So, I again created the 9980 MB "/" and 256
MB swap
> partitions.
>
> The problem is Ubuntu's partition editor would only allow me to create
> these two partitions as Primary. When I later booted the eCS
> installation disk I used LVM to create another Primary to boot eCS, but
> then I wasn't allowed to create any other partitions. So, what's the
> problem here? I knew about the four-Primary-partition limit, but not
> the seeming fact that once those four Primary partitions are created
> you're then disallowed from creating any other partitions.
>
One of the allowed 4 primary partions is a container for the logical
partitions. Once the 4 partitions exist, you cannot create any partitions
except inside the container.
For me it seems your freespace is outside the primary partitions.
Edwin
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It is from weakness that people reach for dictators and concentrated
> government power. Only the strong can be free. And only the productive
> can be strong.
> --Wendell L. Willkie
>
> War is good for business - invest your son.
> --antiwar bumper sticker from the 1960s
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Joe Negron from Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, NY, USA
|
| Post Reply
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